D Tuner and Kahler?

Personally, not being able to use the D tuner on my Attitude doesn't bother me as I haven't used it for years but I came across a interesting comment when I posted a picture of my newly Kahlerizer Attitude on the Yamaha Attitude facebook group and I know there are a few people here who wanted the D tuner to work with a Kahler.

"The older Kahlers(from the eighties) used to have a cam stop bolt which allowed you to use a D tuner with no problem....you couldnt pull the arm up though...."

Has anyone heard of this, Eric?
I can't imagine you not knowing this if was a feature on a Kahler at some point!

Yes indeed, Al. My first Kahler was back in 1983 or so, and those first units came with the aforementioned the cam stop screw. The idea was a good one, but the stop screws themselves were on the smallish side, and it was easy to bend them out of shape after a while. I ended up removing mine, then Kahler stopped using them altogether. I think they might still be a an option on some units, but I'm not certain. At any rate, here is a picture of a Kahler that has the screw. Look on the back portion of the cam plate, just behind the G string claw. You should see the little stop screw coming through the plate:

Did you ever move any further with the stop plates eric? Thaddid work.

From the physics in my mind, the being in tune being held in the balance between string tension and springs, if you change the tension on one strin ittl change the tension (tighter or sharp) on the others. People have argued that it works fine but with nothing to backstop the cam like that screw or plates that eric was working on, I don't see the other strings staying in tune.

I just transpose everything, or cheat from drop D. I had a bass with one of those doo dads and really never used it.

Ahh...
That was my post on the Attitude forum,Atomic Al  

Good to see a member of the Attitude forum on here!

PS love the Cronos avatar!

The stop plates still continue to work well, even if I drop tune my E to D. As long as the bridge can't go further back with the release of tension from detuning, everything stays the same.  

EricHaven wrote:

The stop plates still continue to work well, even if I drop tune my E to D. As long as the bridge can't go further back with the release of tension from detuning, everything stays the same.  

Again, just an argument that the detuner knocks all the other strings out if tune as soon as you flip it due to the changein tension on the kahler cam ..........

The physics in my head tell me the stop plates work from an in tune to tuned down position. If you set upthe kahler in drop tune to tune up to in tune, iddid pull the cam off the plates and everything would go flat.

Make sense?

But set up "in tune" (the way you described eric)would you deduct this is a sound solution eric and the way to use a kahler and detuner together?

From my own experience, I would think so. Kind of makes me think that perhaps Kahler ought to revisit the stop-screw concept.

Now, you lose the ability to pull up on the bar with the cam plates/stop-screw thing, but it is always possible that doing so on an unlocked system will only pull your strings flat out-of-tune. Of course, there are players that can do this a little and get away with it. I just have no desire to do so.

I've been wanting to install a D Tuner on my bass, but I'm still trying to figure out a way to lock the cam, because mine doesn't have a cam stop built in. Does anyone have any ideas or a solution?

I think I remember Eric posting something about having a brass backstop installed on his Kahler.

I been playing in drop D for geeze .... 15 years.

tunes that originally played in eadg, I just move the scale notes on the top string 2 frets up. Transpose. I have no need to crank a lever to tune to E ... ever. I look at tab and some sheet and I don't even think about it anymore.

I had a Yamaha with a hipshot detuner. I fiddled with it, tuned it tight to dadg and never used it again.

it's nice to have options, but this is one of the silliest things I've ever seen incorporated into a bass. Maybe it's just the ooooohen and aaaahen there's been for something so silly. That guy with 4 of em on his bass is pretty cool ... he uses all of them while he's playing. And oh yeah ... no trem.

d-tuners detune your bass even when you have a hardtail. It is very subtle but, yeah, out of tune.

if someone is persistent, and people have been on this forum about this topic, I think the best bet is eric's stop plates.

maybe I just look at it like; all the things I do on an install so the thing will stay in tune, why would I put something rarely used on there that might booger it up or make it not work well?

.o2.

Alexander wrote:

I think I remember Eric posting something about having a brass backstop installed on his Kahler.

Right you are, Al. My guitarist Andy Beech of D'Haitre Guitars (who built my basses) modified my Kahler on my four-string with these brass bars that only permit me to drop the bar, but not pull up at all. It works really well!

That makes sense! Do you ever miss being able to pull up on the bar?

I never pull up the bar for fear of stretching the strings and knocking myself out of tune.
Even more so since I play fretless exclusively these day although now I can just slide up to the note and give it more of a pulling up effect.
I always mean to see how far I can pull up til the strings break when I'm going to put on new strings but I never remember to do so.

I noticed the same thing Mike, using the detuner slightly knocks the other strings out but I doubt this would be noticeable live.
I wouldn't say detuners are silly though. I mean, I'd say getting a trem installed is alot more silly then getting detuner installed haha.

Alexander wrote:

I never pull up the bar for fear of stretching the strings and knocking myself out of tune.
Even more so since I play fretless exclusively these day although now I can just slide up to the note and give it more of a pulling up effect.
I always mean to see how far I can pull up til the strings break when I'm going to put on new strings but I never remember to do so.

I actually pull up on my bar pretty frequently! I usually don't pull up much more then a whole step though, I mostly pull up for blending and other sort of effects (which take a lot less then a whole step pull up). I've had my strings (DR Black Beauties) for a little under 6 months and they are doing fine with it actually, I've been impressed! But yes, bending up more then a half step can pull a string or strings out of tune, so I use it sparingly live.
By the way, you may break the truss rod before breaking a string doing that test I think, haha!

One user here Sly seems to break his strings pretty often, he pulls up ALOT

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bm9f2Fe9_UI

Awesome style he made with his Kahler!
I use Flex Steels. Really like them, they last a long time and I actually like the sound of them broken in.
I like Rotosounds and Pro Steels but I find they become dull sounding way too fast.
Maybe I just play too hard.

I keep my kahlers floating. I do pull up; not as a trem effect very frequently. After a string sagging divebomb, the inconsistencies of string friction from string to string get mostly exaggerated; out of tune upon release.

a quick tug up on the bar will force it back in tune.

maybe it's my install, or how I string up, idk, but every bass I've put a kahler on has been like that; always needs a little tug up to get back in tune after excessive use.

and don't get me wrong ... detuners are cool. Please don't be ordinary. They have their mechanical flaws under certain conditions and I find with a trem is one. Eric's plates (band name?) seem like a solution but nobody has done it yet.

I'II get back to you when I'm being ordinary.
My Yamaha Attitude trems I do that, quick tug up to bring it back in tune, really as far as I go for pulling up.
Haven't needed to do it with my Fretless yet though. Really amazed how well it stays in tune.

Alexander wrote:

I'II get back to you when I'm being ordinary.

madmike wrote:

Eric's plates (band name?) seem like a solution but nobody has done it yet.

MadMike, did you mean the name of my band with Andy? Or did you mean to say brand name?

Seemed like a good band name.

Smashing Eric's Plates.

Stop Plate Erics.

Brass Plated E.